following is a civil conversation about Gay brother and sisters, and
Muslim acceptance. The topic is still a taboo, as it is with the
conservative Christians and Baha’i. I believe the Jews, Hindus and
Buddhists are not as belligerent towards Gays.
The world is
changing, despite the attitudes propelled by the gayphobic understanding
of Sodom and Gomorrah stories, a higher proportion of the population is
moving towards acceptance. Being a pluralist (respecting the otherness
of others and acceptance of God-given uniqueness of each human), I am
blessed to be connected with almost all of God’s creation.
world is moving towards genuinely honoring God, by respecting every one
he created intentionally, but sadly the conservative are resisting.
Most Muslim forums shy away from even carrying on a discussion. I am in
touch with many scholarly Imams and they are honestly grappling with it,
instead of the outright rejection. But no one but the progressive
Muslims groups are discussing it. It is time for us the moderate
majority to face the issues, as we have to learn to deal with the world
with nearly 10% of the population that is Gay, some one close to you or
in your family would be a gay, and let’s prepare ourselves for it, while
some reject it outright. It is not easy to discuss – as moderator of
the groups, I get the brunt of it and it is a responsibility I take
seriously, as I am concerned about the future of societies and want us
to be ready to deal with the issues. The youth among Christians, Bahais
and Muslims are fairly respectful of the otherness of others, the adults
are working on it.
As a member of the family of faiths,
invite everyone to join the forum WorldMuslimCongress@yahoogroups.com ,
we are open to hearing all views, including difficult ones so we can
learn and understand each other.
Gay and lesbians are a part
of our society, indeed, Muslims need to come up with a better way of
understanding God’s creation (49:13) and not reduce his wisdom to the
size of our limitations.
The following comments contributed
to the conversation, and we thank the following members; Dr. Javed
Jameel, Mian Waheed, Rafiq Lodhia, Moazzam Syed, Khalid Faridi, Linda
Barto, Khan Mohammad Hanif and Mike Ghouse. I urge you to read all the
three threads to get a fuller view of the discussion.
- 1st posting – http://nabsites.net/demo/muslims-discuss-on-gaylesbian-issues/
- 2nd posting – http://www.worldmuslimcongress.blogspot.com/2013/01/muslims-discuss-gay-lesbian-acceptance.html
3rd posting – http://worldmuslimcongress.blogspot.com/2013/01/gay-and-lesbian-discussion-at-world.html
creation without reservation, Amen!
Mike Ghouse, a Muslim committed to do his share of work in building cohesive
societies, where no human has to live in apprehension, discomfort or fear of
Dear Dr. Jamil,
is not a tyrannical religion, where the majority forces or pushes its
opinion on the minority opinion. Islam is about respecting other
people’s opinion, respectfully, even Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) solicited
opinions, and at times he was opposed. We need to value discussion, and
even though your note below is condemning me, as a moderator of the
group, I am publishing it, we have to learn to dialogue and practice
democracy, a practice that is embedded in every aspect of Islam –
whether in Salaat, fasting and other rituals, we are all equal, that is
the Islam I am familiar with.
Your statements below are difficult
to understand, and as Muslims we need to grow up and learn to discuss
and dialogue, and not jump to conclusions and condemnations.
tyranny of rulers with Muslim labels pushed Islam out of the domain of
doing good deeds that benefited humanity, and discouraged producing
knowledge in science, algebra, math, medicine and other sciences, they
kept screaming at them that it was the corrupt west that is getting away
from Deen. Muslims barely have a few Noble prize winners; look at the
others, where is the drag?
Those dictators, monarchs and
tyrants, wearing Muslim labels passed judgments against people who
wanted to conduct a civil dialogue. These men wanted to shut out a civil
conversation to learn, God has so much knowledge in Quraan, yet we
want to discourage who seek, and punish and condemn those who disagree
with us, because we have the power to beat up on those who disagree
with us. .
When people are not capable of discussion, they resort
to cursing, pushing, threatening others to obedience. That is not
acceptable in civil societies; the purpose of dialogue is to find
solutions and not pass judgments. The best one among you is the ones who
understand and learn about each other. You seem to fail Quraan on this
There is no need for you to call people in our group to
condemn where you disagree, and why should they? Why do you want to
divide people? Instead, my friend, urge people to intellectually
evaluate each value presented here… and let each one of us make up our
own minds. Don’t ask a person to take sides that is politics my brother.
You are very capable of bringing wisdom to the table; instead of “condemnations” this is not the kind of dialogue
This is absolutely disgusting, Mike.
Let me be blunt now.
I strongly and unequivocally condemn your acceptance/support for homosexuality.
I strongly and unequivocally condemn your persistent efforts to misinterpret Quran to suit your misconceived missions.
strongly and unequivocally condemn your efforts to bury the voice of
the majority of Islam lovers under the weight of your mischievous
Stop this! You cannot be allowed to present and
interpret Quran the way you like. I totally reject you as one who has
any right to talk of Quran. Quran cannot accept sins and crimes of
gravest nature, the crimes and sins that devastate social order, family
system and cause widespread mortality and morbidity.
I call every member to denounce Mike’s attempts to legitimize all the vices prohibited by Quran in the name of Quran.
I resign from the forum in protest from this very moment. I cannot
stand to such blatant support of what is expressly declared Haram by
God. My resignation will save you from a troublemaker from your point of
In extreme anguish
Dr Javed Jamil
Subject: Re: MuslimsTogether :: Muslim discuss on GAY/ LESBIAN Issue
Date: Sunday, January 27, 2013, 8:17 AM
the gay and lesbians are a part of our society, indeed, Muslims need to come up
with a better way of learning and understanding God’s creation (49:13) and not
reduce God’s wisdom to the size of our limitations in understanding the
mysteries. May God guide us to respect all that he has created, Amen!
learning and knowing about each other; respecting the otherness of others
(Mecca peace treaty and the signature); saying to you is your Deen (Sura
Kafirun) respectfully, and listening to prophet delivering and explaining Gods
wisdom – there is no compulsion in matters of faith.
God-given rights to breathe and to live. Everyone has a right to live
regardless of what he or she does. The story of Prophet Suleman and how he
denied food to a sinner, and how God took the powers back is told for a
hand in creation; all is created by him or her. We talked about Prophet
Muhammad getting frustrated because people were not listening to him, God said
to him, your job is to deliver the message and his was to give guidance. Allah
did not permit the prophet to curse them to hell. The Quraan also tells that
had he wanted, he would have created all of us alike.
comes from the Sodom and Gomorrah story. The understanding comes from a
population who hated gays, hated lepers, hated just about anyone who differed from
the kings or the men in power.
knowing about each other, as Quraan guides, we are seeing a better world, a lot
more needs to be done though. Minorities are being accepted, a Black man from
17% of the population can become a president, or a Muslim from with a similar
percent of the population can be a president in India. Prophet Muhammad said we
are all created equal; no Arab is superior to the other and vice versa. We have
accepted the rights of Muslims, Christians, Hindus, Jews and others to live
their lives among the opposite majority we have come a long way. Prophets
vision was a society, where a single woman can go to Damascus and come back to
Madinah, unharmed. That woman represents the weak, the minority, and the one
who is different. We have ways to go, but God willing, we will. We will learn
to respect his creation.
the wisdom of God makes us reduce his words to smaller meanings. We have been
misled about 4:34 (beating a woman) for 1400 years; we have been falsely
injected with prejudice against Jews and Christians by messing with the
translations of Quraan. Even the Arabic speaking Arabs like Ibn-Kathir and
Ibn-Tamiyya have mis-led us. God wants us to create harmony among his creation
which leads to peace; Islam.
Bible and Quraan in particular and other scriptures in General need to focus on
God’s wide universe and majesty. I received the following note from a Christian
friend, and my understanding of God’s word in Quraan is similar, by the way the
specific 6 verses in Quraan and Bible are identical. Here is a Christian point of view;
believe that the city of Sodom was destroyed due solely to the practice
of sodomy. This does not align with Jesus’ teachings. In Jesus’
words, Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed because spiritual works were
totally lacking in every person. Jesus said: For if the mighty
(spiritual) works done in Bethsaida had also been done in Sodom, it
would have remained until this day, Matthew 11:18-24.
taught we were not to judge by appearances but by righteous (divine)
judgment. It’s our spiritual obligation to learn to judge people and
situations righteously, and it’s God’s responsibility to enlighten us.
They shall all be taught by God, John 6:45. We are to pray, regardless
of how long it takes, until we receive spiritual insight.
on this issue over the years has led me, and many others, to acceptance
for those who have a different life style, as long as they are
peaceful, caring and helpful to others, and are law abiding. My goal is
to live in a state of peace and caring for others (love) as Jesus
The question remains: Is consensual sodomy a sin? Rape
by sodomy definitely is sinful, and this was a problem in the city of Sodom
because women were not available. However, this was only a part of what
brought the city down – all inhabitants, in all areas of their lives, were
without spiritual direction. Therefore, crime was rampant.
to come up with a “better way” to help lesbians and homosexuals
escape from their deviant lifestyle and lead normal, healthy, happy lives –
reaffirms the existing bias that there is something wrong with those who are
gays and lesbians, they are no doubt different than the majority (as Muslims
are in the United States – had it not been for the work of good Christian
Pastors and Rabbis, the Muslims, Hindus, Atheists would have no place in the
society – they have put in a lot of effort to accept Muslims as a normal
people, and we need to continually express our gratitude to them for standing
up for the minorities, and we need to do the same – Standing up for others.
(check the site www.StandingupforOthers.com )
Michelle Bachman’s (the former presidential candidate, and one of the stupidest
congress persons we ever had) husband ran a clinic to do that. To undo gay and
lesbian tendencies, he failed and the Psychiatrists and specialist jumped on
him for having false assumptions. We need more research on the topic to see if
this natural or nurtured. Knowing so many gays and lesbians, hearing them out (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ax96cghOnY4 ) brings out the humanity in you.
Lesbian life style, it has always been there, and it will be there through the
Day of Judgment. I am defending their rights in the pursuit of their happiness.
It is a shame that fellow humans have to live in fear of the other on the basis
of an understanding developed in a negative way. It suits most of us to bash
and hate the others who are different, we (both sides) make
the Bible and Quraan and suit our understanding, the conservatives want
to stick with what is around for centuries and the liberals believe
God’s word is larger than it is made it out to be.
Muslims need to come up with a better way of learning and understanding God’s
creation (Children is used in Christian world – Muslims don’t, as God is
neither begotten nor begets).
Muslims together building cohesive societies.
Thanks Mian Waheed for sharing this piece
to help people find the right way. I also do not agree this is a genetic issue,
rather an acquired life style.
discrimination can never be an answer. And extrapolating a bit further, on this
or any basis, killing of one citizen by another citizen can never be
legitimized or tolerated.
for such an unfortunate punishment, jurisdiction belongs to state and no one
about this subject (for or against) should only rely on peaceful means, coupled
with humble, sincere and caring prayers – being the most important
humanity as a tribute to and for the sake of its Real Creator! With truth and
nothing but truth – for His Blessings.
abnormality. It’s a strange logic that ‘if someone feels its normal…”. I
wonder who doesn’t feel that he is a normal even an extremist does that!
by some in this forum unless Allah didn’t know about it when He reprimanded the
people of Prophet Lut (pbuh). Why no one talks of counselling the homosexuals
instead. Perhaps devil’s work and promise that he will change even the khalq of
Allah is proving true. And who shall be saved? He has no control over those who
believe and fear the establishment of the day of Judgement.
with immorality of that act. No one believes that on disputes between a
homosexual and a normal human the law should favour the latter just because of
his normal sexuality instead of the cause or crime.
commanding good and forbidding the evil lest they will be affected by the fitna
whose victims will not be only those who indulge in sin/crime but others too.
As Prophet elaborated this, if you don’t stop people from damaging the boat,
when it sinks everyone will drown with it not only those who are causing the
damage. So Javed Jamil and others should continue to do just that and in his
tolerance Mike has allowed this forum to be as humanly free as possible.
The progonists and the antagonists have similar freedom to enunciate their
Quran is Justice- adl- which must be maintained at all cost. And here it means
civility even when criticizing the view point.
“…until Allah provides a better way…” (4: 15). I think
Muslims should be discussing what that better way is and how we can achieve
it. (I wrote extensively about this in my book Memoirs of a Hillbilly Muslim
in a chapter entitled “Real Gay Rights.” See my website www.Lit-by-Linda.com.)
Muslims need to come up with a “better way” to help lesbians and
homosexuals escape from their deviant lifestyle and lead normal, healthy, happy
Saturday, January 26, 2013 1:54 PM
[SPAM] Re: MuslimsTogether :: Re: Muslim discuss on GAY/ LESBIAN Issue /
understand each other, know each other. Once we know each other conflicts fade
and solutions emerge. God knows as individuals and groups we are in
eternal conflict out of security needs, need to dominate and arrogance.
thanks for sharing this video where Piers Morgan interviews President
what Piers failed to ask was, “Mr. President, you sound good, but do you
mean it? Can you allow us to investigate what you are telling is the
truth?” If he is telling the truth, he deserves to be applauded.
I respect your take, that you have said everything that needs to be said, its
your choice to be engaged or not. The issue is not going away, more and more
members of fellow humanity feel a sense of relief that at least in some
nations, they can live their life, as they feel.
authority to punish a fellow human for their faith and personal behavior
between two individuals. If we do, then where does it bloody end? Look at what
is happening to each one of the people – among Muslims, Sunni, Shia
or Ahmadiyya, where there is Muslim majority run regimes, or any group,
the Christians, Hindus and Jews are not free either.
partner with God and make decisions. No Muslim king, tyrant, dictator, Caliph
has a right to punish any one’s faith and personal practices, as long as
they are not robbing, stealing, physically or emotionally hurting, not
breaking a contract, they can live their lives, the way that they are
comfortable. I wish all nations have the freedom that we have in the US,
India, UK and other democracies.
Religion is personal values, and not to force on others.
salam and rehmat.
system you ascribe to whom you decide to hold as a final authority in the
matter of DIIN (Ø¯ÙŠÙ†), its not my business. However when you quote verses in
support of your opinion, you should not confuse reader by quoting half truth.
Allah in verse 4:15 is giving guidance to men how to deal with women
generally if they are found guilty of lewdness (Ø§Ù„ÙØØ´Ø§Ø¡).
The verse is gender specific. You’ve omitted the entire verse from your quoted
translation and jumped to the preceding verse to ‘support your argument’. And
concluded ‘if two men’ are guilty of lewdness? However, you have now admitted
your derived meaning is even debatable by scholars. All translator and
commentators are unanimous that in verse 4:15 commandment is directed
towards women. Even if for argument sake I accept your quoted faulty and
questionable translation, you could not cite a verse that says men guilty of
lewdness (Ø§Ù„ÙØØ´Ø§Ø¡) as a last resort be executed!
translation, you will realise that it does not paint a fuller picture on the
subject matter. Your meaning in isolation, with out connection to the former
verse is incomplete and unclear. It is based on translator’s personal opinion,
no regards to context, totally contrary to Arabic language rules and uncorroborated
by Qur’an. You quoted translation of verses 4:15-16 as follows:-
among you are guilty of lewdness, punish them both. If they repent and
them alone; for Allah is Oft-returning, Most Merciful.”
is not to accept repentance and for sin of lewdness they must administer death
penalty. How can you leave alone (homosexuals) when they are dead? Is the
Qur’anic command and hadith punishment be the same. Is Allah right or inventor
of hadith? Obviously, both can not be right???
applied by biased non-muslims to criticising Islam through half truths.The
basic principle that I adhere as a Muslim.
ultimate truth and final arbitrator on matters of belief and disputes.
on all matters. He shares His authority with NO ONE.
he followed commandment delivered to him and contained in the last revealed
Book from Allah swt. He had no authority to cancel Qur’anic injunctions and
substitute anything as a Messenger. Even hazrat Zaid did not follow his command
because Zaid knew in his personal matters ‘Muhammad the man’, cannot enforce
his authority. “Behold! Thou didst say to one who had received the
grace of Allah and thy favour: “Retain thou (in wedlock) thy wife,…
source of ‘Islam’ is concern, I trust Allah’s sure commandment by following His
Qur’an. “Do they not consider the
Qur’an (with care)? Had it been from other Than God, they would surely have
found therein Much discrepancy”. (4:82)
teaching of the Qur’an can not be from Allah or His messenger. The messenger
was sent to convey Allah’s message. If Qur’an says punishment for adultery is
100 lashes that is good enough for me. Some one says that adulterers should be
killed for xy ‘commandment’ from ‘Allah’ that is clear-cut contradiction to
adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not
compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye
believe in Allah and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness
their punishment”. (24:2)
for (Ø§Ù„ÙØØ´Ø§Ø¡) adultery is from Allah nor do I think Muhammad had
gone against revealed injunction.
before me did. Allah would judge me on my own merit. How did I arrive at a
certain beliefs. “That was a people that hath passed away. They
shall reap the fruit of what they did, and ye of what ye do! Of their merits
there is no question in your case!” (2:134).
be called for anything but to testify against Ummah’s conduct and when he will
be told that they fell well short of Allah’ commandments, The Prophet would
say: “O my Lord! Truly my people took this Qur’an for just
foolish nonsense.” (25:30)
contained in Allah’s BOOK. If I am asked at The Judgment Day why didn’t I
follow so and so person and this or that ahadith. I will hopefully be in
position to reply because – You alone my God is worthy of command and I didn’t
follow other source because it contradicted your supreme authority and WORDS!!!
follow His command.
was mine. There is of course a debate about whom it refers to. Man and man,
woman and man or woman and woman. The dominant view is that it refers to
homosexuality. Others say it represents any two. But the Quranâ€™s stand on
homosexuality is so clear that anyone who talks of accepting homosexuality is a
protagonist, and I believe that understanding Qurâ€™an requires several other
sources, the most important of course being the Prophetâ€™s own interpretations
and explanations followed by those of his close associates. In my previous
letter, I have also shown that we may require reading Old Testament to
understand a few verses. Abraham wanted â€œmercyâ€ on the people of Sodom
because he feared that some innocents might also be killed. How exactly the
conversation took place has been given in detail by Genesis.
concerned, you can see it summed up in the following article:
as one of the possible options.
regarding permissibility of institutionalization and commercialization of
homosexuality in Qurâ€™an, and Mike Ghouse is determined to keep the debate
going, I now feel I have said enough. To repeat Mikeâ€™s oft-repeated words,
â€œTo you your method of understanding things, to me mine.â€
one who refuses to condemn homosexuality and accept that if mankind is to be
protected, a concerted campaign against homosexuality is needed. I have
repeatedly said that there is room for debating the nature of punishment, but
there is no room for legalisation, social and moral sanction, and above all,
commercialization of homosexuality. If you can understand this much, my
position is vindicated. You can otherwise join the bandwagon of Mike who has
completely forgotten the difference between normal human beings and sinners and
criminals. If his argument is followed, even murderers and terrorists need
compassion. He continues day and night to say that he loves Quran but is
negating its position on almost everything that it speaks about, from the
question of Halal and Haram to belief and disbelief.
Date: Friday, January 25, 2013, 11:47 AM
verses from the Holy Qur’an but the conclusion he draw from them is absolutely
misconstrued. Any one with basic knowledge of Arabic grammar will see it.
I invite reader to open the BOOK and study the relevant verses and will know
that these verses has no correlation with male perpetrators of
verse is addressing group of women. The theme carries on to the next
verse, addressing group of women, among them two (or more) may be
allegedly have committed, an act of Ø§Ù„Ù’ÙÙŽØ§ØÙØ´ÙŽØ©ÙŽ. I accept commentators has also referred it
to lesbianism. I think the term is used here is more comprehensive, however,
before arriving at a informed decision please consider the following.
two women because masculine dual relative pronoun ÙˆÙŽØ§Ù„Ù„Ù‘ÙŽØ°ÙŽØ§Ù†Ù is used. To pin these verses on men is a deliberate
attempt to mislead reader and it is contrary to Arabic grammar rules. Any such
effort must be condemned, absolutely, as it amounts to ØªØØ±ÙŠÙ tehreef.
quote both verses, so reader can understand the actual context.
those of your women who become guilty of immoral conduct, call upon four from
among you who have witnessed their guilt; and if these bear witness thereto,
CONFINE THE GUILTY WOMEN to their houses until death takes them away or God
opens for them a way [through repentance]”.
WITNESSES? If this act take place in privacy? Therefore, context is clear that
it is a public law offence. Any such act if proven must be appropriately
punished. The Qur’an, however, doesn’t leave punishment for speculation and
thus prescribes house confinement as a punishment.
[thus] both of the guilty parties; but if they both REPENT and MEND their ways,
LEAVE THEM ALONE: for, behold, GOD is an acceptor of REPENTANCE, A
DISPENSER OF GRACE”. The Question may arise, if after repentance the
same offence is recommitted then what should be done. Allah has already
answered it, confine them to the house!!!. Or any other appropriate arrangement
that is thrashed out amicably between the family and the habitual
explain to reader whom you have mislead that as a last resort
homosexuals/Lesbians may be killed?
social problem and not limited to lesbianism. Such acts those ultimately leads
to prostitution, all such acts are PUNISHED even under the English law. So
Punishment is not exclusive to Muslims. This is accepted sharia of many
countries. Those reader who need further details on the issue can locate my
article by logging to the following blog:
Last amongst the Equals By Mohammed Khan Hanif (UK).
express my frustration through Ghalib.
samjhaien ge meri baat, De aur dil unko jo na de mujhko zuban aur. Hanif
me for something which I am not campaigning. I have made it clear several times
that I am not campaigning for killing of homosexuals straightaway and have
spoken of death sentence only as a last option in later phases. On the other
hand you are campaigning against any punishment to the gays and instead
advocating accepting their behaviour not only in private but also in public. As
far as Islam is concerned, the options for punishment are very clear. Qurâ€™an
guilty of lewdness, punish them both.
If they repent and amend, Leave them alone; for Allah is Oft-returning, Most
Merciful.” (Qur’an 4:15-16)
exile, cutting of one hand and one leg and death as possible punishments for
those that spread mischief.
punishments, which are well known, for different sexual misdemeanours.
punished in a Muslim country for homosexuality in recent years? Is there any
news of discrimination against gays in Muslim countries? This is not because
homosexuality is totally non-existent in the country but because it is
considered illegal and immoral. The result is that the few who indulge in it do
it clandestinely, and most of them, under the weight of social and moral
pressures, sooner or later return to straighter ways. In West, what happened
was due to the overwhelming role of economic fundamentalists whose only concern
is the success of the market. This is why they simply did not let a sin
silently remain at a low level in society but campaigned for its
institutionalization. Their strategy has been simple. First talk of freedom of
choice. Use â€œcompassionâ€ to defend sinners and criminals. Then produce
figures to show that a considerable section of the population is already
indulging in it with the aim of normalizing an abnormal behaviour. Then they
would campaign for its legalization through the use of sophisticated logics and
mischievous â€œscientificâ€ reports. Once legalized, large scale
commercialization would begin. This strategy was used for institutionalizing
and commercializing almost all the social vices: adultery, premarital sex,
promiscuity, prostitution, nudity and pornography and now homosexuality. The
same is true for drinking and gambling. Each one became a big business with the
result that sex is the most growing business today and within the sex market,
gay market is the fastest growing. The line of the argument will be quite
different when they are dealing with issues that do not support market
interests. So promiscuity is promoted while polygamy is illegalized, abortion
as such does not attract compassion but female infanticide is made a big issue.
Killing of human fetuses in millions and millions oes not arouse compassion but
death the murderers and rapists would.
of punishment is to be given. The point is whether Qurâ€™an can support
legalization of homosexuality? Does Qurâ€™an support its institutionalization
and commercialization? Does Qurâ€™an support gay marriages? If you are such a
big expert and follower of Qurâ€™an, answer these simple questions. The first
need of the hour as far as Muslims are concerned, is to clearly and
categorically state that homosexuality is a serious threat to mankind and must
therefore be made illegal with adequate punishment to those who
institutionalize and commercialize it. Once this much is done, the gay movement
will lose its luster. The biggest success of the gay market has been the
sanction of gay marriages with the right to adopt children, something which
will ensure sustenance and growth in a big way. Poor children who would have
otherwise had the bigger chances of growing as normal, will have to remain
exposed to gay relationships throughout their period of growth. Obviously, a
large number of them would grow into gays.